Transcript
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Welcome to the Practice of Nonprofit Leadership.
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I'm Tim Barnes.
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Well, one of the things that Nathan and I both will agree is that we don't know everything, and I know that may be a shock to a few people, but we have a heart and a passion to continue to learn, even with all the experience that we've had.
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We're constantly talking to people and reading and sharing together and trying to get better in what we do, and so we always love to bring guests on who have much more experience or other thoughts than we do, and so we're excited.
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Today we have James Meisner joining us from the Kipos group and we're so excited.
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James has over 20 years of experience as an executive leader.
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We have James Meisner joining us from the Kipos Group and we're so excited.
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James has over 20 years of experience as an executive leader, really successful in building teams that have driven tens of millions in revenue growth, and he's helped nonprofit organizations achieve sustainable growth and build stronger relationship with donors.
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We're thankful that James has given us some time today.
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We're excited to dive in.
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I know he has a lot to do to talk about marketing and fundraising, and we're going to learn a lot today.
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So, james, welcome, and so glad that you're here.
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Thanks so much, Tim.
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I can't wait to roll up our sleeves and dive into this.
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I can't wait to roll up our sleeves and dive into this.
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Well, I've loved reading some of the information on your website.
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I listened to a podcast that you've done before, and I'm like you're somebody I think I need to know more and learn from, and so we're excited for you to be here.
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Hey, why don't we start?
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First of all?
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Tell us a little bit about the Keyposts group and how it got started and what it's focused on.
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Yeah, so the Kipos Group started about three years ago, kind of coming out of the pandemic, and I had this huge passion to help small and midsize not-for-profits grow their revenue streams.
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I've always believed that bigger isn't always better, it just is better funded.
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And I see a lot of innovation coming out of the small and midsize not-for-profit sector, with executive leaders that maybe have come from the program side of things and don't know how to scale fundraising and marketing.
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So it started as kind of a passion project and now has grown into a boutique firm and we do it full time now.
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So it's really fun.
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People always ask what Kipos means, and Kipos means garden it's the Greek for garden and the idea is we want to help people grow something really beautiful at their nonprofit that helps to sustain them into the future, like a garden does for a family.
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That sounds great.
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I'm excited to learn more about that garden today.
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That's really exciting.
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So what drew you to work with nonprofits?
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I'm sure, with your experience and everything, you could be doing a lot of things, but you've given your heart and passion to nonprofits.
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Talk about that.
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Yeah, when I was younger and probably a lot more idealistic, I hopped in the car and went to Washington DC for undergrad and I thought that I would get involved in government to help solve some of the world's biggest problems.
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I've always cared about the marginalized.
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I've always cared about people living under systems of injustice, people in poverty, people on the move, refugees and other vulnerable immigrants, and I thought I was going to get involved in policy and change the world that way.
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I got to DC and I still live in the DC suburbs, but the government and policy work was so boring to me and so slow and so complicated and I eventually decided you know what, I'm going to go to the front lines of this.
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Yeah, the big systems change is needed, but there are other people who have the temperament for that and I just don't have the patience to sit in an office all day.
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I want to get out there and do something.
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So that started.
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My journey ended up in East and Southern Africa for a good chunk of time and then with some NGOs that did humanitarian work and have really never looked back, it's been a great journey and I've loved it, even though it's broken my heart along the way.
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Yeah, well, I relate to that so much and well, I just I'm grateful that you have given yourself to to uh, to nonprofit work and we actually, early on, we're talking that we, I think we kind of uh, circled around each other and not really knew each other, but we have some common, common interests and common experiences.
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So, uh, I I'm really excited.
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You know one of my, one of my uh, I guess maybe you could say I'm a fanboy of Seth Godin a little bit, but I love how Seth talks about.
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You know, nonprofits are there to really go after big problems.
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People support us and give us money to try to solve problems and I, as you know, nathan and I are passionate about the impact that nonprofits can have and I appreciate your heart for that.
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You know, business and government have not found ways to solve some of the biggest problems in the world.
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Government is just inefficient, even when it's best designed to be inefficient.
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Actually, at least our system of government and big businesses haven't found a way to monetize the solving of the world's biggest problems yet, and that leaves nonprofits to figure it out.
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Well, you spend a lot of time coaching and working with nonprofits.
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Let's talk a little bit about what are two or three of the biggest challenges that you see that they're facing at the moment.
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Yeah, how long do we have, you know as long as you have.
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Okay.
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So in thinking of this two or three, the first one I'm going to say is leadership.
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I think nonprofits have a crisis of leadership and this takes all types of forms.
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So maybe just some stories to illustrate.
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So maybe just some stories to illustrate.
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I'm wrapping up a project with an organization really great organization, doing amazing work, and the CEO, who recently transitioned out, during their entire tenure refused to make any hard decisions and refused to take any action.
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There were staff running around rampant, you know, treating other people poorly.
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The CEO refused to talk to the board about hard things and at the end of the day, you have to ask the question why.
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And I think it boiled down to the fact that this particular leader was just uncomfortable and he was afraid about what others might say about him.
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Another story two weeks ago I got off a call with another CEO and we had to talk about some of their personnel and at the end of the conversation I looked them in the eye and I said I am 99% sure that I have not told you anything new, so why haven't you done anything about this yet?
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It's been years that this has been a problem and the answer boiled down to fear, down to fear.
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And I think, with this crisis of leadership, you have two trends.
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One is fear.
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What are they going to say?
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How am I going to look, how am I going to be perceived?
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And the other is this deep notion that it's all about me as the leader.
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That doesn't mean it's all about me in a big, bold, braggadocious kind of way, but when you put your needs before the needs of the mission, when you put your needs and think that you have to be responsible for everything in the organization, you're going to make bad decisions, you're going to burn out, and I'm just seeing tons of inaction in the nonprofit space right now, which is leading to a lot, a lot of burnout in the sector.
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So that's the first thing I would say.
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I think the second thing is people.
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Every leader will always say I've never heard a leader say anything other than you know.
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People and staff challenges are the hardest thing that I'm dealing with right now.
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And my question is well, why is that always the case?
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And I think it's because, number one, people are messy, but, number two, leaders aren't always willing to have those hard conversations and create the conditions for success for their staff and keep people in the right lane.
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And I think third especially working with small and mid-sized nonprofits is money.
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It's the same number of dollars year after year and we all know with inflation, the same number of dollars means less impact and people aren't active, which means that they're not making decisions and they're not implementing the things they know will help them grow.
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They treat donors like ATM machines.
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They don't tell stories in a way that put the donor at the center of it and I think that's why only 2% of nonprofits in the US ever break a million dollars in funding.
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But these are all interrelated, they're not separate problems.
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I think you know leadership is the top one, people are the second and then that leads to money, you know, as the third into the money side of things in a couple minutes and I feel like that's a lot of expertise that you have and I just I have a couple of specific questions for you, excited to talk to you about that.
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But let's come back to what you just said in action, what's it?
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What's it going to take?
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What do you think it's going to take for these leaders to actually say, okay, you know, darn it, I'm going to, I'm going to go forward, I'm going to push that aside, I'm going to go forward on it.
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Yeah, excuse me, I think, a few things.
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You know, life is always full of challenges and it's not about are we going to face challenges, it's just about what are we going to do when they, you know, arise.
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I have three small kids at home right now and I think, like anybody who's raised small kids, you know that deep down inside they know what they should or shouldn't be doing.
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I'm not talking about infants and toddlers, I'm talking about, like elementary age.
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You know kids.
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They know what they should or shouldn't be doing, but they need some type of guide and guidance along the way.
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They need somebody to instill courage in them, somebody to gently sit down and talk with them when they, you know, make a mistake.
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And I think for a lot of nonprofit leaders, they're afraid to ask for help.
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And when you have somebody that helps you, that's really the only way you're going to develop the courage to make the tough decisions that need to be made, and those decisions are what cause action in the nonprofit.
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I'm always shocked how many nonprofit leaders tell me that they face the same problem year after year after year.
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Then you interview your staff and you start hearing.
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Oh yeah, that started in 1997.
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That started in 1994.
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That started in 2003.
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My goodness, that was, you know, 21 years ago.
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Leaders are responsible to solve problems and it might be messy.
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Leaders are responsible to solve problems and it might be messy, but you know, we talked a second ago that nonprofits solve problems that big businesses and governments just can't.
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When you make decisions and when you work with people, things get messy, but you don't change the world by doing the same thing over and over and over again and expecting different results.
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The world is changing.
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Nothing is static, so you can't be static, you can't be immobile, and I think you know, just to add a finer point to this, so many in the nonprofit space hold themselves to such a high standard.
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It's full of type A, really thoughtful, perfectionist, academic, pseudo-academic.
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You know type folks and unless they've, you know, thread the needle just so, they don't want to move.
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Well, at the end of the day, you're never going to thread the needle just so.
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Once you start doing something, you're going to encounter another problem.
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So I like to talk about just what does it look like to have intelligent failure.
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What's it look like to take imperfect action and just start doing something, thoughtfully doing something and learning from it, because if you just sit back and think you're never actually going to crack the nut or solve the problem, you have to actually start doing something along the way.
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I know that scares a lot of people, but there's a lot of studies out there that show that iteration trying things, making tweaks, tinkering with things actually is what moves the needle for the most successful organizations, be it a for-profit or a non-profit.
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Staying static is just not an option in today's world.
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Yeah, I just wonder.
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Sometimes, James, it feels like there are so many things on our plates as leaders.
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You know, just sitting down and looking at how much is there, and sometimes it's hard one to make a decision about.
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What should I even do, and maybe it's like I don't know will it make any difference if I take this one little step?
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But the idea of consistency, right, taking little steps every day starts to make that difference.
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It doesn't oftentimes happen just like I do that one thing and the whole thing is great.
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So I appreciate that input.
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As a small nonprofit or medium-sized nonprofit, the fundraising marketing is some of the most challenging because it kind of falls on you.
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You don't probably don't have a development person or advancement person sitting there.
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You're going to have to start taking some of those steps.
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So let's talk about uh, you mentioned the art and the science of fundraising.
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Can you talk us, talk us through a little bit of the art and the science and then how those go together.
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Absolutely.
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Let's start with the science and let's just you know, define science, you know.
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For a second, science is all about you know, we learned this in elementary school the scientific process or the scientific method.
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And what do you do in the scientific method?
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You have a hypothesis, you design an experiment and then you measure the results of that experiment.
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In fundraising and in marketing, there are certain things that we just know because people have been fundraising forever.
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This isn't a new thing.
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There are things that we know that work.
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I'm talking about measuring your process, measuring that method, that scientific method.
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If you have a hypothesis that when you build relationships with high net worth individuals and when you tell them stories of how they could change the world in a area that they care deeply about, and you ask them questions about their passions and you start measuring that, well, how many of those conversations have you had, how many stories have you told, how many questions have you asked?
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You can start seeing are those numbers going up or are those numbers going down?
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In the world of measurement, you can call those lead indicators, you can call them, talk about OKRs or KPIs.
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You know different things, but it's the hypothesis, that science.
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When I think, when I do this, then this will happen.
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Build more relationships that are deep, build on trust connected to a donor's passion, telling great stories, casting a vision, then more money will come.
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We have to start measuring that.
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Now, I'm not saying you just measure meetings.
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A lot of organizations that are small just will make 100 phone calls a month.
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Okay, but what's the quality of those phone calls?
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Are there great questions?
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Are there great stories?
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So I always tell people you need to measure your donor engagement process.
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If you don't have one, just Google donor engagement process, you can go to our website we have a sample just lined out for you and measure that.
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Okay, that's the science side of things, and I just continue to always be shocked that people don't have either systems of measurement or they're measuring just the complete wrong thing.
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Okay, the final thing about science, before we go to art, is that science is precise.
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You don't make a scientific breakthrough by painting a broad brush stroke.
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You know over something.
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If you read a scientific paper, my gosh, it's mind numbing in its detail and precision.
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And when I look at small and mid-sized nonprofits, particularly their fundraising and marketing team, they ask one or two people to do it all Work with foundations, work with government grants.
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Please update the Instagram and Facebook account.
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Can you please plan the donor gala this year?
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Write the proposals, write the reports, engage with finance and track things through our ERP system or whatever it is, and you start to spread a person so far out that they can't be precise in anything that they're doing.
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Nonprofits, even really small ones, even ones that are just a few hundred grand in annual revenue, when they focus their staff, their fundraising and marketing staff, on something that is precise, whether it's major donors or foundations or an annual fund area, and say that's all you have to touch, don't touch anything besides that, do you know what happens?
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Good stuff, the numbers start to go up and to the right.
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But, just like in science, when stuff is spread too thin, you're not actually able to figure out what's working and what's not working and because nothing gets focused, usually things stay flat or they start.
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You know they start declining.
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That's the science side of stuff.
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On the art side of stuff, let's talk about art.
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You know art is free flowing.
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Art is all about expression.
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Art is all about expression.
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Art usually comes from some deep sense of passion that people have.
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Usually, artists have some type of deep sense of pain that they are creating art out of.
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There's always this example of Switzerland.
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Right, there haven't been amazing artists, you know, out of switzerland, which is a neutral country and hasn't experienced war.
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What have they done?
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They create a great chocolate, which is scientific, and great clocks, you know, which is scientific, and banking systems, um.
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But you don't hear of great artists you know coming out, especially during the renaissance, because they were a neutral country.
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There was no pain and turmoil.
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When you hear of the great classical musicians, massive pain or depression or sometimes even mental illness, there there's something that they're creating out of.
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Your nonprofit was created out of a deep sense of pain.
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The people that you serve, be it a hospital system, a health clinic, refugees, the humanitarian space, helping underprivileged city kids there's a deep sense of pain there.
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There's a deep sense of pain there.
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How does that come across in your storytelling?
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Or are you just telling a glossy, whitewashed story?
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How, when you're sitting across from a donor and you're asking them about their passions and they say, hey, tell me about why you work here, are you allowing that deep sense of pain and brokenness in the world that has motivated you to work at this nonprofit to come through in that.
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Do you excuse me?
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Do you let that govern how you lead a conversation with the donor, deeping into their discontent with an area in the world that they care about?
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Tapping into that emotion People give, even high-level executives when they've studied their brains.
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When they make decisions, they make business decisions out of the rational, logical center of their brain.
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They make charitable giving decisions out of the emotional center of their brain.
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How are we tapping into that?
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That's the art of how you tap into that.
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You need the science to govern your process, to create measurement.
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But if you just send a bunch of scientists out there to have conversations with donors, you're probably not going to make a lot of money for your nonprofit.
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At the same time, if you send a lot of artists out there with no process, you're probably going to get a lot of passionate conversations, but again, those conversations might not go anywhere without the process and the science.
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So you need to think about how do we blend these two together are created with the logical, rational part of our brain and the emotional, artistic part of our brain.
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For some of us, one is stronger than the other, but they both work in tandem and that's what makes us human, and if we don't bring that to this world of fundraising and marketing for nonprofits, if we don't go after and steward and serve and connect with our donors, with all of the parts of them that make them who they are, there, we're not going to do as best as we can for the missions that we're trying to serve.
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James, there's so many places and questions, so many places I'd like to go, so many questions I have.
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I am intrigued by something you said, and I think this is something that especially small executive directors really wrestle with.
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I'm intrigued by the idea of saying don't try to do everything, because you as a, as a leader, you come in and I need to find some major donors.
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I need to keep communicating with you know the, our regular base or whatever.
00:23:49.165 --> 00:23:50.990
There's so many things I'm trying to do.
00:23:50.990 --> 00:23:58.594
It sounds like I'm hearing you say pick one of those and give most of your time to that.
00:23:58.594 --> 00:24:04.231
How do you go about determining what that is typically?
00:24:06.020 --> 00:24:18.471
I'm 100% saying that and I can't tell you exactly what you should prioritize, but I can give you some, you know, two or three questions to ask and then a big idea to chase.
00:24:18.471 --> 00:24:22.488
First question is where is your existing money coming from?
00:24:22.488 --> 00:24:35.368
Okay, for a lot of organizations it falls into three buckets foundations and grants, major givers or government.
00:24:35.368 --> 00:24:45.410
Some small and midsize organizations have done a good job with the crowdfunding you know monthly giving products and things but very few have done that well.
00:24:45.410 --> 00:25:08.951
So it's usually major donors, foundations or government, which one has worked well for you and then focus as much time and energy there, because if you just get 10 or 15% better at that or 10 or 15% more efficient, that is going to materially matter in terms of your economics.
00:25:08.951 --> 00:25:11.694
So where have you gotten your money?
00:25:11.694 --> 00:25:22.135
Number two is look at giving trends nationally.
00:25:22.135 --> 00:25:30.445
67% of all charitable giving in the country as of 2003 still comes from individuals.
00:25:30.486 --> 00:25:37.567
I would never give a strategy to a client without, you know, doing a deep dive into their history and and all of that.
00:25:38.269 --> 00:25:53.724
But if I were to meet somebody in an airport and they asked me this question and I had five minutes, I would say prioritize major donors or small and mid-sized family foundations, which are basically major donors that have incorporated it differently for tax reasons.
00:25:53.724 --> 00:26:01.869
That is where most small and mid-sized organizations will really move the needle for themselves.
00:26:01.869 --> 00:26:10.298
So if you are out there listening and you're the executive director of a small organization and you have to decide what am I going to?
00:26:10.298 --> 00:26:26.875
Spend your time on Major donor cultivation and set yourself up a process and try to build good relationships with 25, 30 high net worth individuals that care about your mission and focus on that.
00:26:26.875 --> 00:26:45.770
I don't care if you never post something to Facebook or Instagram again Okay, I would like you to, but I don't care if you don't, because if you build those relationships with those 25 to 30 major donors, you will move your needle and then you can hire a 24 year old to do your social media for you.
00:26:47.681 --> 00:26:59.022
Well, that's, that's some great advice, james, and I'm sure you have information on your website that people can go to and if they want to find out more about this, they can contact you.
00:26:59.022 --> 00:27:00.085
That's really encouraging.
00:27:00.085 --> 00:27:12.282
I want to finish up our conversation with one other question and, as we record this, we're in this process of finishing up one year and looking to the next year.
00:27:12.282 --> 00:27:30.094
We're kind of in that you know, the last two months of the year, which, for some organizations that's a large amount of their resources come in at the end of the year, but we also have to be thinking about, okay, the next year, putting some things in place for that.
00:27:30.094 --> 00:27:37.632
So how do you encourage people, how do you coach people to kind of finish up the year and, at the same time, preparing for next year?
00:27:37.632 --> 00:27:39.305
What does that transition period look like?
00:27:39.846 --> 00:27:45.720
Yeah, absolutely Over 30% of all charitable giving is given in December.
00:27:45.720 --> 00:27:51.032
I don't know when this goes live, but you have to do a great job in December.
00:27:51.032 --> 00:28:02.905
But even if this went live in the next hour, if you're just building your year-end campaign, you're probably too late to galvanize year-end 2024.
00:28:02.905 --> 00:28:08.772
But you're not too late to hit January 25 right on the head.
00:28:08.772 --> 00:28:16.304
You need to start the new year by extravagantly thanking your existing donor base.
00:28:16.304 --> 00:28:21.753
We have a lapse donor crisis in the United States.
00:28:21.753 --> 00:28:30.855
Less than half of all new donors in the US will re-up to organizations next year.
00:28:30.855 --> 00:28:33.520
The retention rate is under 45% right now.
00:28:33.520 --> 00:28:34.502
Why?
00:28:34.502 --> 00:28:39.451
Because we don't let people know where their money's going.
00:28:39.853 --> 00:28:47.709
By and large, you have a great opportunity in January 2025 to thank your donors.
00:28:47.709 --> 00:28:49.431
Don't wait.
00:28:49.431 --> 00:28:50.873
It's not an administrative task.
00:28:50.873 --> 00:28:52.695
It's not a busy chore.
00:28:52.695 --> 00:28:57.429
Thank them In 2025, the next 11 months is going to go much better.
00:28:57.429 --> 00:29:01.942
Don't just send them their tax receipt by January 30th.
00:29:01.942 --> 00:29:05.709
Send them a report of what you did with their money.
00:29:05.709 --> 00:29:08.153
You know when they gave it last year.
00:29:08.153 --> 00:29:09.273
Thank extravagantly.
00:29:17.079 --> 00:29:19.064
When I look at year-end plans, I always say it's not finished yet.
