Transcript
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Welcome to Episode 92 of the Practice of Nonprofit Leadership.
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I'm Tim Barnes.
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And I'm Nathan Ruby.
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Well, nathan, I'm excited about our episode today.
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You know, as leaders of organizations, it's important to be reminded of the importance of leading ourselves, making decisions about our health, how we manage our energy and our focus and the priorities in our life, and those contribute to us being a more effective and impactful leader.
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Yeah, you know, tim, I started.
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Well, you and I have been kind of focusing this year, just privately between the two of us, on some health things and eating a little better, and maybe we don't need Pringles every day of our lives.
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But this actually hit home for me.
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I started about 15 years ago and I was sitting on my couch in the family room minding my own business and my wife brought in a jar for me to open and I couldn't open it.
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And as no matter how hard I tried, I couldn't open it.
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And so I did some research and I found out that after you reach a certain age that you start to lose muscle mass, and I said you know what?
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I am not letting that happen to me.
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And so that was when I started lifting.
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That was, I think, 15 years ago, and have been doing that ever since.
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And then a little bit recently.
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More recently, I was in a conversation with my wife and the kids were around and I said oh, I'm taking tomorrow off.
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And one of my kids I think it was our youngest said oh, so you're going to work like every other day of the week, and it was like that's not true, I don't do that.
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And my other kid said, dad, you've worked on every vacation we've ever had.
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And it's like, oh well, maybe there's a bit of an issue there that I need to address.
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So yeah, it's something that is near and dear to me and something that I try to pay attention to.
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Well, our guest today is going to share some insights that will help us do a better job of leading ourselves so that we can lead others, and our guest today is Jack Groppel.
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Jack is an internationally recognized authority and pioneer in the science of human performance.
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He served as the co-founder of the Johnson Johnson Human Performance Institute.
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And Jack is also a recognized authority in sports research, having successfully worked with numerous world-class athletes and teams.
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He's also the author of the book the Corporate Athlete, which we'll talk about in just a bit, and a co-author of the Corporate Athlete Advantage, and currently Jack is a professor at Judson University, located in Elgin, illinois, in the Chicago area.
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And, jack, there's so much more I could say, but we're so glad that you're here today.
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Well, thanks, guys.
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It's really great to be with you.
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I really appreciate the invitation.
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I have to tell a quick story, jack, about how we first got connected.
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So when I was, I was living in central Illinois and there was a big leadership conference that came to our civic center in central Illinois and so my friend and I went and we spent some time at that conference and all kinds of speakers, world class speakers and there was a guy named Jack Grapple that shared and, for whatever reason, I was really taken by what you were sharing and so I ended up much to the chagrin of my wife, I think I bought some of your materials and brought it home.
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But it was really, it was impactful, it was really giving me a lot to think about.
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And then, about two or three years later, we had moved to the Chicago area and we had found a church and we were at a church and after church service we were visiting with people and in the background I heard this voice and I'm like I know that voice, but I don't know how I know that voice, and I turned around and it was.
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Jack Groffel.
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And so anyway, Liz, my wife says I'm a fanboy, but I just appreciate what I've learned from you and I'm excited for you to be here today and to jump into some of these topics.
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Well, it's a privilege.
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I'm honored at that story.
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I don't know if you've ever really shared that story with me.
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I think I don't know if I did or not, but it's great that we had the opportunity to connect.
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And I learned a lot from you over the years, and so I appreciate it.
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I didn't mention any dates, so we won't say how long ago that was.
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Yeah, let's not.
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But, Jack, let's jump into this.
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There's so many things that we could talk about, but I'm really intrigued by the book that you wrote.
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First of all, the idea of a corporate athlete and how leadership and athletics go together and what we can learn from that.
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Yeah, and I think first of all let's do a little bit of a disclaimer, because a lot of people might be listening to us and they'll go.
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Well, I'm not an athlete, so this won't pertain to me.
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It has nothing to do with whether you played sports or not.
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This has to do with really the Greek definition of athlete, which is an elite performer.
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That's not necessarily physical, I mean, it could be mental.
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You could be a really astute human being who solves problems really well.
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That could be an athletic performance.
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That's what I'm getting at.
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It's peak performance in what your arena of life is.
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If you're a stay-at-home spouse, I mean you've got to perform.
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Your kids don't care if you're having a rough day.
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If you've got young ones, I mean, and that's kind of how life is.
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I mean we go through life and what happens is we start skimming across the surface of life and we're not able to go deep because we haven't we haven't really mined that inner self of, of of high performance.
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So I think that the corp.
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So now let's, let's understand how we develop the corporate athlete concept and I, the first time I ever let's understand how we develop the corporate athlete concept and the first time I ever I developed.
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It was in the early eighties and I was at a conference in Hilton Head, south Carolina, and I was doing it with Stan Smith, the former number one tennis player in the world, wimbledon, us Open champion, hall of Famer and Stan was in the twilight of his career and someone asked him what do you plan to do after you finish playing?
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He said I'm going to use everything I learned in sport.
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I'm going to apply it to my life in business.
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And I went oh my gosh, corporate athlete.
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And Stan knew I trademarked it immediately because I'm going, I have no idea.
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But then it turns out it was way before its time.
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Because I'm going, I have no idea, but then it turns out it was way before its time.
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The world wasn't ready for that.
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And I think it's only recently, probably in the last decade and a half, that the world got ready for it.
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I mean, even when my book came out in 1999, I mean, the publisher didn't know, do we put this in the business section?
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Do we put this in the sports section?
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And so I think the idea of a corporate athlete is being at your best, who is your best self at whatever it is you do.
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That's what a corporate athlete is.
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That's really helpful because, you know, our podcast really is focused on small to medium nonprofit executive directors non-profit executive directors and sometimes when you have these kind of conversations it's easy to think about, oh, these big corporations or these big organizations.
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But it really is true.
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Even for those of us that may lead a local non-profit who's trying to make a difference in their community, those things connect even at that level.
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Well, it's very true.
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I mean you can't lead.
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You said it earlier you can't lead others unless you lead yourself.
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So being a corporate athlete doesn't necessarily it doesn't depend on how large your organization is.
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It depends on how you find your best self and then, as a leader, how you encourage others to find their best selves.
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I mean, if we did that, I mean it would be incredible.
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It's interesting because, Jack, I heard you talk about things, uh, you know, several years ago that I think now everybody talks about it, you know.
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And so, um, you know, one of those is the idea of you know of we talk about managing our time, but you talk about managing our energy.
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Can we dive into that a little bit?
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What does that mean to manage our energy?
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Yeah.
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So the catchphrase to that is manage time, but don't manage time.
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Manage your energy, and the idea is that time is a finite commodity.
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I mean, everybody says I don't have time and I get it, but it's, and so it's not about finding more time.
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See, that's what everybody tries to do in time management.
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Time management never lived up to its uh, its posits.
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Time management said we'll get, we'll figure out how to teach you how to use your time.
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Never did it.
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Energy management, however, is how you use the time that you have.
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So when I work with people in time management, it's a 24 hour schedule.
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What are you doing with the time you have?
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You can't have more time Now.
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How do you manage your energy and why human beings are biological.
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What we don't realize that energy is finite.
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Why human beings are biological.
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What we don't realize that energy is finite.
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We don't have infinite amounts of energy.
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In a very simplistic sense, why do you need sleep?
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You've got to recapture energy.
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Why do you need to eat?
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I mean not not having the wonderful Thanksgiving dinner I'm telling.
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Why do we need to eat?
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You've got to fuel the system.
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You've got to fuel energy.
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So food becomes a drug, if you will.
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I mean in many ways, how you fuel your brain and your body.
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You know, exercise, how you increase your capacity, has nothing to do with physical performance.
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It's increasing your capacity and, nathan, you're learning that by lifting weights, what you started with 15 years ago, you increased your capacity to open a jar.
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But again, don't go to the physical.
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It's about how we, as biological creatures, how we as biological organisms, recapture energy so we can increase our capacity to do all things in our life life.
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You know, jack, you're talking about managing energy, and one of the things I've learned in in my lifting and my working out is everything you ever read says oh, get up at you know 5.00 AM and get your workout done, and I can't.
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I can't do that.
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And I get up that early, my back hurts, my legs hurt.
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I can't do that.
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My energy level says for me to lift at about four o'clock in the afternoon.
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That's when I am at my best, and so that's how I work it into my schedule, and for years I felt bad about not doing it at five o'clock in the morning, but now it's like that's just.
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That's just, it works best for me and that's how I do it.
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So I've got two things to say to that.
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Number one is you've got to do what works for you.
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That's number one.
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The idea that you figure out when is my ideal time.
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Now there are people listening that go, well, four o'clock, that's nice, nathan, that you can do that, but I don't have that ability, right right.
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So now we get to point number two that some would argue and I'm not saying this is your case, nathan, because you figured out what works for you at four o'clock, but what has to.
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But how others need to take this approach is that that four o'clock in the afternoon they say I can't do that.
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That's a counterproductive brain pattern.
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That's counterproductive.
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So how do you create a productive brain pattern?
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Well, you've got to start small.
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Maybe you do need to exercise at five in the morning.
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Maybe that's the only time you have in your life where I mean, for some people, this is their spiritual time they have.
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The only alone time they have is five in the morning.
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So what you have to do is retrain your brain and your mind that it will work for you.
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Now that takes time for you.
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You went, okay, I did for me, I, by the way, I'm the same as you, I don't I I I played college tennis.
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I competed, you know, at a pretty high level and and I hated morning matches.
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I hated morning workouts.
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But I also realize in today's world that the idea that I can't change is something that's not true.
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I'm working with a new company right now in a new field called NeuroLiteracy that we might be able to do another podcast on that, maybe in the fall.
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But that's literally dealing with counterproductive brain patterns and how do you build productive brain patterns so that you can actually coach yourself to change your behavior?
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So those are my two positions.
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But number one I agree with you that for me I'm the same, but I also know, like my father, I'll never forget.
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I wish I knew then what I know now.
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My father always said to me I'm stuck in my ways, I can't change.
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Now let's understand my father.
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Me and I were really estranged and he struggled in his life and it was really rough, but he literally dug his heels in the sand that I can't change, and that's not true.
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We can change at any stage in our life.
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That's the field of neuroplasticity and neuroliteracy wow, we could go so many places with that.
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Can I, can I ask so?
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Um, I think this is along the same line, jack.
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So I've heard you talk about when it comes to energy management and we look at things like our physical or emotional or mental or spiritual some some things actually feed into us and some things take things out.
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I've seen you do like buckets and putting different things back and forth.
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Can you talk about how to understand that, like what gives us energy, what takes energy and how do we manage ourselves to make sure that's in sync?
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Well, as leaders, we have to understand there, you know, our bucket needs to be.
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We need to figure out the things that fill our bucket, not the things that empty our bucket of life.
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So, you know, in in college, I mean, I love to say you know the there are.
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There are 10, 10% of the students that probably shouldn't be in college.
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I love them, still love them, but whether it's apathy, whether it's not academically ready, whatever it is, they're not there and it takes an amazing amount of energy to guide them.
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Now, is that bad or good?
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I'm not evaluating whether it's bad or good.
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I'm not evaluating whether it's bad or good.
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What I am saying, however, is that sometimes you have to put so much energy into that that you can't take care of the 10 to 15% that are truly I mean excelling and truly have potential to make a difference, like right now and you're pulled so hard by certain areas that you can't, you don't, you don't have the energy to give.
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So what you have to do is step back and you always ask yourself this is my favorite question is what I just quoted on this just this week what matters most right now?
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Always ask yourself that, as a leader, and sometimes it's yourself.
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What matters most right now is my self-care.
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See, we don't do that as leaders.
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We say what matters most, well, I got to take care of this team.
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No, no, no, no.
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What matters most very often is your own self-care, and then number two, if you have children, if you have a spouse, a partner, is your relationships.
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What matters most Because you've got to fuel the system.
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Again, human beings are biological organisms.
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If we don't fuel the system, the system breaks down.
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You know, a lot of people think they're stressed out.
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No, it's not the stress.
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See, without stress we would die.
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It's not the stress that kills us, it's the lack of recovery and the lack of recapturing energy that kills us, and that's a huge deal biologically.
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Can you go a little further with the recovery side of things, because I think that is something that we, that we miss oftentimes.
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Yeah.
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So you know again asking yourself what matters most right now is that that I have that I, that I take this emergency phone call, or that I take the emergency phone call in an hour and a half and get a quick workout in.
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I mean, honestly, I'm not trying to be the, I'm not a fitness nut.
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It's not about being a fitness nut, it's about the idea of how can you be your best self and without recapturing energy.
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So, for example, there's all kinds of little.
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If I had you, if I had your audience, get a, get a mental picture of this that I have your held your arm out to the side and I put a, a three pound weight in it, I mean that's minimal.
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And I say, can you, can you do one set of 10?
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And they start laughing at me and I say, okay, now I want you to just do it for the next 20 minutes nonstop with a metronome.
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Trust me, that wouldn't go well.
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Or even this one hold your arm with that three pound weight in it, hold it out to the side, no problem, all right, I want you to hold it there for 20 minutes.
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It's going to be a real problem.
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All right, I want you to hold it there for 20 minutes, it's going to be a real problem, it's going to start hurting.
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See, it's not the stressor, it was the fact that we didn't give that situation a moment of recovery.
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Now, if I built in recovery, if I said do one set of 10 every three or four minutes, you could probably do that almost nonstop.
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See, you see what I'm getting at?
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Sure, so without recovery, we break down.
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With recovery, we can go for a long time.
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So the idea that even I mean even a marathon, 26.2 miles, the greatest runners in the world, they know how to pace themselves, but they also know when there's a downhill, when there's an uphill, when they might draft another runner, they have little bites of recovery even though they're running a race.
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And these are world champion runners.
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They build mechanisms of recovery into their training and into their racing their training and into their racing.
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I think I read somewhere or I heard someone say something that I think you have said the idea of you know, if you're sitting at your desk for hours after hours, after hours, if your job is that way and you never stand up, you never walk, you never do anything.
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That breaks down as well.
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Even just standing up brings some recovery right.
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Yeah, we call it linearity, being linear in whatever you do.
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If you're linear, you will break down.
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We did a study in 2016.
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I can send you the link if you want your listeners to get access to it.
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But what we did it was a very controlled study by and we had it commissioned by the University of Denver Medical School, where it was three different groups, three different groups.
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One group had no activity whatsoever.
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They showed up at like eight in the morning.
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They stayed at their desk.
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They ate when they normally ate, but we controlled everything, but there was no movement whatsoever.
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The second group came in and as soon as they got there, they did 30 minutes on a treadmill walking on a treadmill, not breaking a sweat, but walking on a treadmill.
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Then they sat for the rest of the day.
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Then we had a third group that was the experimental group that we had doses of like five to 10 minute bouts of walking every like two and a half hours throughout the day.
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I mean the data show very, very clearly the intermittent movement there.
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I mean they data show very, very clearly the intermittent movement there.
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I mean they had more energy they had they were able to be more productive.
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Even their appetite, cravings went down.
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It was absolutely amazing.
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So we we were able to really, and we called it.
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Then you need to build micro bursts of life into your life.
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So, whether that's movement, whether that's, you know, calling a child, you know it's funny if anybody that's ever had children imagine calling your child when your child was like three years old and the child picks up the phone and imagine this child goes hi and you go hi, bud, I'm having a really, really bad day and your three-year-old doesn't grasp that.
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That three-year-old does not care that you're having a bad day.
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But what do we do?
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Hey, how are you you doing?
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Okay, suddenly we totally change our body chemistry, we change everything about ourselves and I think those are the best word pictures that I can create when I get to those extreme levels, that when we build in intermittent bouts of recovery, we can go a long time and be very, very high performers.
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One of the things that you talk a lot about, jack, is the idea of really leaning into our purpose leadership.
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I know it's a big big thing for you, yeah, how, why do you see that as so important, and what's the outcomes of really focusing in, identifying and focusing in on our purpose?
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Yeah, historically, let's understand that when Jim and I were doing this, it was ourselves and Stephen Covey and that was about it, that was really talking about this.
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And we were doing this in the late 80s, early 90s and now to your point.
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Purpose is mainstream, everybody talks about it.
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We were shown the door, though in the late eighties it was very, very soft in corporate training and it took a real champion in the C-suite to really grasp what we were talking about.
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But why did we do it?
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Because, again, world-class athletes, if they're really, really good, there's a why to what they're doing.
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It's not about the money, it's a why Like I want to be my best, I want to be, I want to, I want to be, I want to get myself to this level we had.
